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#1 Posted : Friday, April 7, 2006 6:50:08 PM(UTC)

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Transferred from a message I wrote ב"למטייל", and the following comment of Ronnie in the old forum and my reply to a comment. It seems to me relevant reference for whoever comes to handle long paths.

A. What is olteraliit?
First of all, a tiny aircraft type that floods the country shores on Saturdays. But in this context, access equipment, aiming to carry less and travel more; The premise is that the person carry less on my back, he can more comfortably handle.
B. is it?
Not at all. At the time, before we became humans as spoiled wandered with irritating tarp on your back, and try to carry as little as possible, or just broke their backs. Earl Shaffer, the first person to complete the three and five miles of Appalachian spring in 1951, carried a backpack, a volume of not more than 40 liters. '' Grandma '' Gatewood mother, the first woman who completed the Appalachian spring in 1958 (at the age of 71, and she did it two more times later, and made 2,000-mile journey on the Oregon Trail), was carrying small bag, according to the following: a blanket, plastic, some first aid, plastic cup, a raincoat, vest clothing swaps. Food-beef jerky, nuts and cheese and found a way. For shoes, she used tennis shoes habotas. Considering only after leaving the pension increasing to for more than five thousand kilometers until her death at age 85, the method worked.
C. what happened?
The travelers began to carry more equipment when the bags were invented the first effective in 1952 (the old idea, and mention only those that frame a few thousand years ago that Amir linked to it, as well as from the second world war). The case of Kelty Super tioga, was so successful that no big bshinois is sold.
However, the external accounts allowed to carry much more weight in comfort; Was necessary to save on all kinds of items; The standard of living of the traveler. The advent of the bag has an internal frame in the 1970s increased the trend, because internal frame ltiki greater stability; Was now possible to carry much more equipment into areas too.
And at the same time, the world moves forward.
The 1970s marked the introduction of new and improved technologies to market. Breathable clothing, nylon and polyester tents, sleeping bags and relatively easy — all won great popularity in the 1970s, although some of the technology existed before. 12 battalion of the Golani Brigade and received the shmshvenit bag "in 1972, which was, according to '' b '', the big leap in the history of IDF. Again; Unlike the early ' 50s, walking a good case could carry a lot of gear, and enjoy good conditions much more when stopping and starting a camp, better food, and better protection from wind and rain.
Any story since the 1950s went and carried more and more equipment. In the 1980s was very popular in the United States to carry 25 percent of body weight as equipment.
E. what?
Here, I have a little problem. I just don't know enough about it, and there is not much documentation. What is certain, at some point came with internal cases. No one import from USA with external files, and or, the term "L?we" became synonymous with the crowds to '' account that until today. However, unlike the average American, in Israel there are two differences:
1. all horanim. Less problematic weather conditions, heritage, youth tend to build fires – the average traveler carried less American counterpart equipment, even on the same number of days.
2. us. And no water. The average American was out of idea what days it carry all the water.
And what about this? Carrying out the Israeli less equipment, but not necessarily less weight. Moreover, Israel was less a way to lower the weight, because water has no substitute. It is impossible '' to drink a half. "
Awareness of water shortages increased risks since the IDF for the discipline of water out there, and they all basically Greece macho complicated and not many vets wouldn't tend to carry less weight. I have known people who roamed the Negev week without water purifier, my back!
On the other, there were the macho to carry basic supplies, and one for a while were drying on the way. In addition to these goddess wasn't developed weight awareness: shoes has. -Case. What need?

Part II:
It will be told why the French don't and more wonders and Leo, precisely in order that, and will be the words ultralite ultralight and, for no reason except to find in search engines.
Well, I already couldn't promise: I don't know why I don't know French equipment manufacturers. Really – barely heard of tent manufacturer from France, and a Google search brings results similar to ' Israeli ' manners. Or maybe the French aren't ready to let the English-speaking world have no idea. Played. Leave the French.
However, a brief history of the last chapter:
At first there were no bags to heavy weights, then dragged. Then became more serious cases. So carried. '' Guys from Sun a living example of this, when the transition from primitive frame bag and fits into a briefcase and discusses other worthy and decent President dragged more equipment.
In the 1980s and early 1990s was common throughout the USA, Israel, and Europe, not including cabins, carry a lot of gear for the trip (according to rumor, once observed travel on the Mont-Blanc with piano steinovi, although many sources claim that this rumor was not created: it was hardly a villain).

Well, not necessarily, but it seems they carried almost makes sense.

And what happened? Two things. One read, and both Ray ג'ארדין.
In the field of materials, the 1990s entered the market relatively large-scale all-composite materials, lightweight, sophisticated and expensive. Using nylon super soft fabrics reduced the weight of sleeping bags; More sophisticated insulation fibers formed a sinantis households who were able to compete in weight of upside down (upside down, roughly 600; 750-800 reverse, more valuable still remains unrivalled in terms of dropped), and 2000 decreased the weight of bag '' gift to minus nine degrees (Fahrenheit; 3 seasons sleeping bag '' that standard), under a kilo (in 2003, the lightest weight '' that bag that came to 830 g, of which 540 grams of insulation (Mountainsmith-vision The champion of the quantity, weight 850 g stated he and 600 grams. However, as usual, it is a few percent deviation and bag '' that; In my Vision, the actual weight is approx. 880 g and thirty of the storage bag); A few years before, '' bag and same amount of insulation was weighing more than a pound. In the 1970s, much more).
In bags, Spectra, Kevlar and other composite materials, though many times meant trouble with stitches (the first case composites had a reputation for trouble in the field), allowed to save weight, too. Also in the same tents, tents lost their weight: the super soft fabrics, and expensive. Titanium tools and soft plastics added another trend.
Whoever was carrying him just equipment, could carry less weight on him. A few pounds less. As usual, at least on the back – worth the walk.

But, the difference wasn't that important anyway: the weight of the case came from the back, from the seams, pockets and other formatting attributes: with eight pockets, day case connected him and five fingers on carrying handle, weigh a ton: practical sorcerer, still (for Harry Potter readers speakers: Backpackus Accio!). Ditto about the tent with three pockets, two doors and five rods: pay him a massive carbon rods, and still got a weight problem.

And here comes in a bearded aircraft engineer and a little crazy, named Ray ג'ארדין. Above, a well-known climber USA decided to refine the approach known among some climbers. These were cut from their equipment toothbrush handles, clothes labels, the labels manufacturer, extra pockets and almost can be cut. When it comes to mountaineering, a clear idea (although, chshashiti and hold all toiothio tent, made 25 g just let us not appreciate too the options!). ג'ארדין also went back to the basics: he made himself his bag, blanket and his wife double, minimalist rain sheet, and rarely took him additional equipment. Shorts, using manifold as a raincoat, some food, Cookware, multi-purpose sports shoes. Tent? In nzinia- Mattress length? Warm clothes? A lot of interchangeable? I na ichacho. First aid- Minimal. The most possible anyway.
He, if carrying less sweat less and drink less, and there's even more savings. He usually walks around with liter drinks, sometimes two. No more.
In 1989 he made the Pacific Trail, two thousand and seven miles, four and a half months; Rate of some 30 miles, or 50 kilometers a day (days). After perfecting the method, he did the Appalachian spring in 1993. In the same year, and in most years until 2000, only 10 percent of the freshman to Varsity. Many of them have dropped due to difficulties in coping with the physical effort (and, of course, with the mental stress created tracks). ג'ארדין took the previous year ' travel guide ' at Pacific Crest, and wanted the principles to his bed. After Appalachian spring trail and the Pacific Crest was added (this time, with full weight of four kilograms, including case), people also began to notice him. Since then, ג'ארדין become quite rich from selling his books, and the House began to carry less. ג'ארדין became a prophet of light weight and adopted his methods as possible. The demand also led to easy on those who are unable to make their own bags and tents. Large equipment companies also began hunting the equipment easier. The recession in the United States, in 2000, resulted in an unexpected way some market development: most companies caught rain jackets cost 450 bucks are out of the reach of many consumers, and a wave of coats, simple and cheap; In fact, among the new raincoats in USA in recent years fewer and fewer models super expensive.

Part 3:

So what '' kettz
The method of ג'ארדין and his colleagues worked: percent people who completed the Appalachian spring goes and comes, and much of it development because the average weight for the traveler decreased in several kilograms. 1-2. To try to exploit the system, had to go all the way. The case, considering a few hundred grams, was unable to carry much equipment without making a hole in the back (even ג'ארדין Mint sometimes carry the bag on one shoulder, on call). The easy save and eased the walk – provided that carried enough supplies to make the dangerous Trek. Get more equipment and used sneakers, and hurry back thank you for increasing the clientele.
Use-case material to be allowed to reach the 40-liter bags weighing a pound – but costs waiver on back, and production-case less resistant. One manufacturer, GVP Packs, even selling his olterliit model without any warranty (except that the case will arrive in good condition), and warns that it is designed for skilled hikers not too difficult terrain (fondest in thorns, Hebrew translation), and even that number might then use monthly. (Not surprising, considering that it is 30 deniir fabric, known as '' parachutes '' fabric I'm using cloth storage bags, but I think, stay with 1000 flexible Gregory also made such a fabric case G-Pack, and have a place to think we won't see a lot of him surviving five years). Manufacturers of bags not embraced olterliit approach, for example, Dan McHale or American Adam Stevens (' Gecko ') explicitly stated that they thought saving too weight bag hits the road. They argued and largely of Justice case that weighs a pound more but put the weight back on a better system and better hip belt, carry the weight more easily unless you have zero weight really. And according to Adam Stephens, '' What's wrong with simple and inexpensive party bag? Anyway you don't carry anything on your back. '' They claimed to want to save weight, please kindly do not buy curios about the case.
As a comparison, let's take two cases that have similar size: G-pack of Gregory, 45 litre nylon fabric, with flexible fabric reinforcement 30 deniir deniir 210, weighs in with his psychic 1100-1260 grams, and the system consists of an aluminum rod (hollow) 7001, and two giant mesh pockets The Gecko's rocky terrain, have held roughly the same volume (a bit more), consists of 1000, flexible uses 6061 aluminum poles three (one version had two transverse, inverted-V shaped), with two side pockets and a few other tricks, and weighs around 1600 g (not including PVC loses bottom plate to protect the mattress). What's more convenient at the weight of 10-12 pounds I bet my bag, although the G-Pack is King back systems in olteraliit – it has more backing system for olterliit case else – and he received relatively positive reviews from users who insert it such weight. Between the lines of criticism about learn when it has too much weight, he's getting impatient and a little problematic (many authors seem to retain some olterliit religion; when you see too many apologies for criticism, I suspect). And this is marked clearly, American standard. On rough terrain, let's not forget, G-pack finishes his term quickly; He also specifically not designed for this space. One of the examiners noted that erosion was caused after a few days of sightseeing, the President raised the case with 9.5 kg (incl. weight myself) unraveling seam. Also the fabric Airmesh suffered burnout. All examiners have noted the need for attention to the case, and carefully reproduced relatively normally. The equation is simple: what you save, you pay. If you are building a case for a similar weight bags-medium standard, his weight will not significantly different example files (olterliit files without considering back system as ounces, again mentioning). If you want to save, you pay – durability, or comfort. Or both. Or you create a portfolio that requires attention and limits you to a particular area only. Should be ready to pay attention to what the bag and pack it, otherwise how can damage. Each will decide if it is worthwhile.
The RAY-WAY, as were his principles of ג'ארדין, had no mercy: everything not essential right, not taking And he says so, he's going right: 15 full length (300-450 g) – No. Take three-quarters back and put your feet on the case. Inflatable mattress (at least 620 grams over full). Single-lens reflex camera – pounds of weight. Rain pants – waste. Handle shorts and reinforced umbrella, or rain clothing super easy (today, for example, has a breathable rain clothes when weighing a pound for both pants and jacket actually doesn't so expensive but Super minimalist). In nzinia: do. Remove ... Why not cook in aluminum or titanium Cup-
'' Bag for cold weather. Unnecessary. Change the bag '' that easy, with all your clothes (a prescription, whether it's in every zatam day). Even ג'ארדין himself and others on a mattress on the third time did the PCT; He tried to sleep on leaves as insulation, and if not – on warm clothes. His book in some places becomes somewhat mystical, almost safe to say that he believes his own religion, full is olterliit; '' But I connect to the ground '' by sleeping without a mattress, thanks. Moreover, he made too many people to think that he thinks that everyone who doesn't embrace enlightenment attitudes have not yet won; He may deny it, but it certainly sounds that way.

The isht olterliit lets go a long distance, but should be experienced travelers. Otherwise, you will have to give up something, too. This year, for example, were quite harsh weather conditions in the Pacific Crest; Hordes of travellers bought halfway serious equipment so that they can survive. Moreover, we should forget all that pampering is part of: the trip, known as '' night '' is just part of the past. Try it to be limited as much as possible, or be unpleasant (and unpleasant for those who, as testifies one of Leitrim in haoltera-"hostel where I slept, I slept less of us because of the cold and the time hit me in the back, this is what happens when someone 1.95 m long trying to squeeze the minimalistic '' bag without insulation and over).

If you're not a jazz experts, his attitude. If you take out all the pattern. So you'll have to pay a lot of money to save weight. My own work, but Spectra cost a fortune. '' Bag that weighs 850 g could cost about 300 dollars abroad, full price. Tent talk isn't cheap. The cost that you may be required to save weight, could reach $ 1-made in extreme cases, weight per gram less extreme cases: for example, the Marmot Helium (822 grams, excluding, with 850) costs $ 360 at REI The Surf of the same company, AV the same temperature, may polergrd Delta fibres, weighing 1.53 kg and costs $ 180. Difference: $ 700-170 g, (of course, there is also a simple bag put '' cheaper because of convenience, I use both models not imported, and the same company). And so on. The equipment will save a few pounds if you reverse everything you take to Lightweight-weight version, which is a significant difference, but don't expect to reach around 6-7 kg weight including multiple-day trip including a case without radical changes in the form.

And in Israel.

In an attempt to implement a complicated method of olterliit much more. The amount of water that carry large winter alone more than average American carries in the summer, and the amount of water you carry in the summer. More than one American got released when Dorothy was always talking to Israelis may carry more than 10 liters. Only the water using potential method for non-olterliit really. Carry the Israeli minimum equipment, establish just, sleeping on the side upholstery rock Sarah to save weight the mattress – and still carry weight that Santiago should personally do it with decent shoes.

To demo. Suppose a raised out-winter trip a few days, filling water backs (purify them with a filter, you don't want to know how the backs sometimes seem), it has a water filled every day and a half.
And suppose that I cut my usual equipment and taking the following:
'' That bag: 880 grams.
Platib: 300 grams.
Titanium pot 1.3 liter: 170 grams.
When questions + windscreen + fuel four days (a cup of tea in the morning, evening dish – three full days, total): 250-300 grams.
Silk garments per night (sleep in sweat): 160 g.
Glass and fork: 60 grams.
Food: 2 bags of 2-3 packets (280 g) casserole. Teabags, Nescafe, sugar: 100 g. Jerky: 400 grams for four days. PITA: ounces. GORP (mix size: almonds, walnuts, peanuts, dried fruit, pretzels, M&M). Milk powder: 100 g, 150 g cornflakes:. Total food per day: 655 g, not including about 700 g. wrappers. The amount of calories per day: 2200-2400 calories. Not much for a day, be safe.
Filter: 450 g. Lets carry much less water.
Tiny flashlight: 15 grams.
Toilet paper: 50 g (small shovel: stringent 50 g, stool cover).
How do we?
4800-5000 g, solo travel for four days, not including water. At olterliit.
Add seven to nine liters of water (Let's remind, still used and water refilling point every day, and let's say I have a wee bit reserve and could take slightly less than that generally carry less weight)?
7.3.14 kg and it before!
That is, olteraliit. Ends. Impossible. If you consume a lot less water * * me-say, 5 liters a day and a half it's possible but borderline.
If we assume that our dear amatiil a little less Spartan, and (like me).
Lightweight tent (2.295 kg including optional ground cloth, 1.9)
Inflatable mattress instead of platib (380 g add-on).
Clothing Exchange set (600-750 g, including socks, trousers, shirt, undershirt and long underwear as all synthetic materials in lightweight cotton – add 50% overnight and shorts around the camp: optional).
Bowler: 100 gr.
Flashlight: 110 grams.
First aid kit: 400 grams.
Anoint '' Jerusalem and Bowl: add 50 grams.
Photographic equipment: in my case, including camera, lens, case, mini tripod and a few filters – a little over a pound. With another lens gets 3 pounds, but it depends on the total weight: heavy tours I give extra lens).
Tefillin arrangement (male religious): 150-gram (siplock, bags packed and the bottom of the vent tefillin).
Emergency phone: 100 gr.
Crocs, 280 g of 44 learning.
Root, model 2001:650 g.
Root, 2003:840 g.
For Sail: 635 g Wizard
(All weights 44 learning, test).
What we got?
15 to 18 kg, and I round down. Excluding the case I mention.
Someone really wants to try to carry all this in 30 deniir Mrs system by recommending?

Moreover, and became the bag '' and that more respect or your tent more respect.
If you are travelling with someone else, about 25% of the weight.
If you give women, the weight of the two-thirds water and decrease food intake slightly, but only slightly
(2400 calories a day is not much effort either, just to be clear).
In short: this olterliit concept, not practical, especially for long walks. Can handle not optimistic assumption never any fault and ceiling you are close to water, or if you're really ready to starve and freeze, or the appropriate season if you are very skilled, especially if your spring water. But once the water enters the interest factor, olterliit method becomes impossible.

In Israel, even if we are all somewhat horanim (travel an average Israeli carrying a lot less equipment) still unlikely possibility to embrace the concept. If, it's a good thing.
What can adopt, and why:
You can move any item the detailed investigation of the "do I really need it. ''
You can buy the lightest equipment possible (if you have the money).
You can walk with canes and feel like you're carrying less weight.
We always take what is impossible without it, and what we may have '' NIS.
You can skip some of the features in this release include to carry a lighter weight.
You can take plastic bags (10-15 g) instead of packing bags of root (75-80 g per piece) and heavy volume.
You can see what each one takes to save duplication (not solo trip.)
(To share in religious: tefillin).
The idea of carrying less equipment is a useful idea: less weight = more miles with less effort = more fun
But you have to remember: sometimes, rather than equipment ensures a better trip. Once hit safely, preferably more. Save this til a good method; But, don't forget that you're at the end of the trip, scheduled to return home safely.

OK, so much.
Thus replied me Ronnie:
YGH, looked at what you wrote in and functional and I don't completely agree with you. Ray ג'ארדין-true you never read his book-become an Idol and a role model for too many hikers who can't think for themselves, and some of his suggestions are pretty stupid (have you ever seen what happens to the umbrella in the wind ...), but his basic idea works for THRUHIKERS. Ultra Lite may not work on a trip to India or South America, where the last thing you want is your pod, tear in the middle of nowhere. And when we go out for a weekend of luxury equipment bnshiath comfort (call Sandals equipment) should to benefit more from the tour ultra Lite method doesn't always work, even when it comes to carry more than 6 5 liter of water on the Earth, but it works almost perfect for walking long distances on trails such as the AU and the PCT. The body of most of us — only one purple lucky on Tutu-not built for heavy loads. A large proportion of people who suffer from knee pain ktadin in various degrees of hardware ו"מצליחים to carry" up there just because of one or another type of pain reliever (Ivo-prupin, alcohol, weed, etc). Reducing the weight of a backpack helps significantly to reduce the strain on the knees and legs and increasing the duration of ה"קריירה walking distances. I am convinced that, had I so keep a minimum weight of the backpack I was carrying couldn't go 15 months without leg pain as I did.

I think YGH mistake when he talks about the G-PACK as example for ultra Lite. This backpack is made by a commercial company and its clients are not THRUHIKERS with experience, but the suckers who come to shop for equipment with $ 1000 and ask the seller what to buy. Most ultrasound equipment quality Lite produced by individuals with experience and ethics of THRUHIKERS. For example the G4 which I use offered by Glen van judgments (GVP) is a very nice person who even writes on his website how to sew the casing yourself for a much lower price. The big advantage of products like this is that they are designed to THRUHIKERS and thus for example Glen gets feedback every year from people who have used the product and improve it for the year. Although basic backpack canvas has been cut is not strong, the reinforced casing enhancements in sensitive areas, so I used the one pod for nine months (and he'd still be in a usable form) and in his second pod used by the PCT and I still intend to use on the CDT. And I'm not a man who is gentle with equipment, I just don't do stupid things like dragging it over rocks. The Gregory is to my knowledge the first model of this model, so I had a chance to get feedback, and so, usually commercial manufacturers change their models often smaller, commercial reasons.   Remember also that the pods as BOMB PROOF maybe made of fabric much stronger, but their seams not stronger, and unraveling significant not much less than ultra light equipment with reinforced seams in sensitive areas.

Regarding the economic effect to mind aulta Lite equipment can be significantly cheaper than heavier equipment. People who carry less equipment pay for less. The difference between the price of the price of tent TARP can be over $ 150 and you can buy two G4 (it costs only $ 85 including shipping) for the price of a standard pod so even if he lasts less time than a backpack, total expenditure on casings will be more or less equal. True topic of sleeping bags are light, the sky's the limit in price, but it is only the item where all kinds of travellers looking for the lightest. On the contrary, if you stop using in extreme QUILT (which is not recommended for most people), its price will be lower than that of a sleeping bag.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not preaching to an already light. Although I carry a stove and pot, and cold, I take comfort items like small POCKETMAIL shortwave radio, or reading books. I just wonder about this item do I use if I justify its weight. I intend to carry with me on another shirt to wear in CDT towns instead msroacha shirt go with her on the trail, and it's really sacrilegious to ultra Lite former fanatic like me.

And I responded back:
I don't think we have.

My arguments split up into several groups:

1. This olteraliit concept, not only the equipment easier.

2. If you are trying to save weight by reducing equipment items, and by giving them, it will cost you a fortune.

3. country has a problem.

4. you should understand what you are doing before you throw.

I see no contradiction between what you're saying what I wrote.

In fact, since I turned some time on the AT in 2001, dropped a lot of weight. And this year, I want to do it from start to finish, my goal weight is about 20 pounds including SLR camera (and tmchroiotav), food and water. Since I gave up too.

(A substantial savings: peruffo costs to cooking, get whoever produces the chalia himself; includes windscreen, excluding fuel, about 70 grams and cost).

It doesn't put me in the olteraliiterim League, but it's certainly fine.

The Gpack brought as example precisely because he is not a classic olterliit case but try to do olteraliit file using the normal structure or less, just to cut down on weight. I don't share your criticism of Gregory, but it doesn't matter (again, in the GVP, remember, no warranty and is probably not serious weight): my demo was a difference relatively small weight fabrics, while using properties (system back pockets, double and triple stitching, padding into strips) adds weight. With all due respect to Glen, I won't use my socks as padding to shoulders my bottom as he offers to G-4. Glen's case better to aim; But those who don't know, think he saves weight by buying this case without matching the rest of the system, gets a fever.

Shabbat Shalom!
#2 Posted : Friday, April 7, 2006 7:51:45 PM(UTC)

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If I had two hats, I'd take them off for you YGH
#3 Posted : Saturday, April 8, 2006 8:59:16 PM(UTC)

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Amazing article!

"(A-significant savings: peruffo costs get to cooking, who produces the chalia himself; Includes windscreen, excluding fuel, about 70 grams and cost). "

Can you elaborate on that? And etchings.

#4 Posted : Saturday, April 8, 2006 9:33:02 PM(UTC)

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A great deal, but may? For Israel to get alcohol problem. Too bad. Gasia? solution. With wind shield. And the rule that English called chalia


There are lots of links, typically take 2 pepsis. One name needle 20-22 holes in the diagonal of one phase, 3 mm hole in her Tin outlet Center

Take a nail and cut numbers to dudes the bottom 3 cm height and another cut right under the downward phase, i.e. the downloaded her head only. Now take the short and tucked it into the prepared so she sat her face at the end. Cut out the part that OC Central Command "stands" ashrit is visible from under the phase. That's it. No labels, no welds. Only a few tries until you succeed.

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