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leibman2  
#21 Posted : Thursday, July 30, 2009 11:19:59 AM(UTC)
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First I was born, nobody asked me: would like to be a Jew? It's just something that set me I don't think about myself as a Jew in any way, why, because I told my mother a Jew? My grandparents to appeal? There are a lot of things, but as a religious man really don't notice, why do I have to get married with? If I need a divorce it is also through the Rabbinate. Don't you learn that Israel State freedom it is supposed to be the Jewish State and free State of all its citizens. And because all religions we're alive not to get out of trouble and hatred there because it's a big part of religion to divide people and this is one of my biggest problems with religion.
I have a question for you o. K
Are you saying that now a lot of religious coercion and that it isn't relative Halachic State. My question is where is the line? There is a point that the religious right says: I think it will disturb other citizens? It won't happen because I'm religious as a Jew (by definition) have to live with them and that the real problem is a problem of perception that everybody needs to believe and to be and that's what really floating holidays. I don't want to come back to the question of religious so why do they want me back?
זמי1  
#22 Posted : Thursday, July 30, 2009 12:37:02 PM(UTC)
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Israel

Note: I personally like enjoyed reading the discussion fora.

Amtrak  
#23 Posted : Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:51:56 PM(UTC)
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Firstly, I object to this lofty approach, because of the remoteness and ignorance of my religion, I get confused and think happy thoughts, it looks like you're suggesting they're shmalnity.

The thing about Saturday also bothers me, and the story of drunken ה"נהגים these fools don't convince me-if there was a proper public transport, weekend people can spend more, and less load on the roads, and innocent people around them say Zeitlin corner and Ibn Gabirol were not overwritten by drunks. And beyond partying all Lark family in Israel has a car. Not everyone can choose not to save Saturday and weekend travel north, or jump to relatives in Haifa, and the lack of public transport really limit people who don't have the ability or the will to chlklitef holding vehicle.

Now, there's the huge issue of marriage in all kinds of horrible crap like the partnership, and not to mention divorce in a country that always are, regardless of Rabbinical whose wedding (if any). It's shocking to me personally trying to make me do some kinds of Voodoo ceremonies in times so important in my life, and in General with all sorts of horrible stories about psoli and hithon Agunah.

To the end, there is the beach theme. It's annoying, Yes. Israel National Trail is marked on the beach, and people that want to do the same, even in mid-August, should be able to do it. On the other hand, is only two months, and eventually religious are allowed to bathe in the sea. And as long as you can understand my stuff CCRR each have a lot more important to fight them, than a small piece from Israel that should override.

.o.k  
#24 Posted : Thursday, July 30, 2009 5:56:31 PM(UTC)
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A. not arrogance, it's my opinion.  I think a religion and tradition arichok causes confusion with other things like nationalism, etc. [Libman e.g. wonder who called such as source]. If I sound arrogant, apologies, I didn't mean, but again, that's me.

To our business:

I think Jewish nationalism stems and derives from a source. Even if you don't believe in God, still on this [our faith, the Bible] was created and developed by our people. Therefore, importance of religion and said the tradition is not just a religious-level, but at the national level-shkaptit. Not Zionism was born 100 years ago.

For example, Matthews said the seder is a property of the nation. How long will hold this property when it is disconnected from a religious context. I think for many years. Every 2000 years of exile, it was clear Israel belongs to the people he's a what? Because he kept religion and link to Torah and mitzvot. We're 100 years old process value that returnees, while was abandonment of religion. Nowadays, some people are already confused! Such things are tested for hundreds of years, but I think today can see that. Take today's youth and compare it to the youth of a century ago. This same ideals? Those values? The same priorities? I think not.

C. you claim the whole of Saturday, and Voodoo ceremonies [casual condescension and contempt ...] and divorce-all because of the religious. So let's get to the religious equation. We describe ourselves without reference to Israel State Saturday, with civil weddings and marriage among Gentiles and Jews [such as large-scale currently abroad], without no Rabbinate. What will be here for another 100-200 years on? When a student asks, why is this country precisely and why all this mess, what torture? Where will the Jewish people ever. Sound far-fetched? I think not. Abroad for instance assimilation it hits what justifies our stay here? What power do you want to eat the cake and leave me. Not be any formal education and reference to things mentioned but still keep Jewish ב"לאומיות. I don't believe it's possible.

Incidentally, as I described above [especially on the subject of weddings and divorce] must drag, but people breaks apart now I focus on the ramifications of anything about non-religious public.

D. the specific issue of Saturday and public transport-and answered it twice Ma gave his answer in the other. And this just an example of the theoretical debate.

For your question, Libman: draw the line wherever he goes today. We are in a sort of status quo for many years, and I don't see why the public decides tomorrow to make revolutions.

About this we think whoever is wrong: it's simple religious! If I believe that the Sabbath must not, for instance, and you do, then clearly you're systematic If I say that your legitimate way, then I'm the biggest liar! Why else would I overload myself hundreds of things I have to do or not to do? If your way is correct, why I live so differently-I question that religious travel you don't think they're doing bad things or prohibited to shitch. They make themselves a hard tops, shitch. But I do think you're doing the wrong things, prohibited. If, for example, to meet a man [the mind thing for him] who smokes dope, you say it right and live whatever? Of course not. Because he destroys himself! Because you think he killed himself. Even if he thinks it's okay! Same thing here, "Israel's Arabs and Jews" have a mutual responsibility for each other and it wants religious secular religious too.

.o.k 40024.631875
leibman2  
#25 Posted : Thursday, July 30, 2009 8:30:22 PM(UTC)
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Israel's Arabs and Jews "have a mutual responsibility to each other.

A nice idea in theory feat yet in reality unfortunately.
navot  
#26 Posted : Thursday, July 30, 2009 11:47:16 PM(UTC)
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OK,

When they started to climb the first members, who were they? Jews, Zionists and pioneers often almost entirely secular. The settlement, which many times has independently and physical and economic infrastructure for the settlement and the most bitter blood, was and still is a group of features that define (and consolidating, more important), but they are not religious. About religious groupings, it is my opinion later.

The old Yishuv and Jewish holy cities, guarding over religion and tradition for over 2000 years full of battles, conquests and persecution, they brave bunch, its contribution to the country and the State of Israel Israel. On the other hand, how many people do you know that they're a generation x? How many people do you know that they are third generation in Israel? There's a lot of them. Most of the population, and therefore the definition of Jewish identity, Eretz Israel is the evolution of the concept of Jewish nationalism in exile. This concept, is fundamentally religious. I think and guess (so don't get me the word, and please don't fight and offence) that Asian countries and immigrants were North Africa during the exile and are now in our little closer to religion, but also a long distance between them to be called "religious". (This is, in my opinion, setting out specific religions allow universal to religious Judaism "and" Buddhism for him.)

Out of all this mess I wrote I tried to explain better my point since there are two concepts. "the Jewish nation and the Jewish religion" are different, though overlapping in certain places.

Said "how long last seder when disconnected from its religious context.
Seder, in this case, is also a characteristic of the Jewish nation and the Jewish religious property. So even a secular family celebrates Passover, the West Bank and Egypt port.

It's interesting that this topic up now in nine days, and the message I write really out Tisha be'av. This day is Miss us entirely, in my opinion. People can learn a great deal if there was at least a mention on the tv networks.

About "all Israel Arabs together," the pkrtic of a very problematic.
I completely understand your side. You, you, you see the "light", you know the right way, the better to share the joy out of it. I understand that your intentions are good, and you don't just want to annoy me. (When I say you and I mean religious and secular man, respectively)

It's very nice, thank you. But I don't want

Now one thing I want to say about myself.
I served during the army with many religious and learned a lot about religion and way of life, which until then was pretty foreign to me. Total there are many beautiful things there, but it doesn't suit me.
The most beautiful things, took me and my combined understanding of good and evil, right and wrong. I think the same thing would have happened if I'd serve with Christians or Muslims or any other religion. I love to listen to them and to learn from everyone. I think it's a thousand times nicer than fighting and arguing all day.
On the other hand, I'm Jewish. Even if you live in Mongolia, still be a Jew. Even if you marry with Zoroaster, still be a Jew. Repeat the lament of my children, build and will come in. They don't think the Save Saturday, touching or go with a dome. I have so how to explain it. My parents name stressing certain values, religion and nationality that they thought were more important than these values, I think, more important, and teach my children. Other values. Of selective filtering of religion, I think, to experimental and systematic works best for me.

Guest  
#27 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 12:11:58 AM(UTC)
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Hello, can anyone hear?

I thought I got confused and anti-religious Forum, anti-secular, anti-Western, anti-Jewish, anti-globalisation, anti ...

The story is that someone at the Herzliya municipality confused and forgot that beach is designed not only to the public of steaming clothing lovers. They want to sweat in their company doesn't interest me and bothers me.

It's all I can go on the beach, even if you keep me feet, without any anxiety evolves to mtzicin squealing and some old hit gbertan with my daughter because I dared to leave home (well dressed with long sleeves and pants) on a weekday of mid-August.

.o.k  
#28 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 12:54:37 AM(UTC)
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Navot

A. when I wrote that kept religion and teachings for 2,000 years, it was clear to him that its not meant for those who were in the country. I meant the desire to return to a rather than settle in exile to yearning for Zion. You said the definition of Jewish identity is referred to as "the evolution of the concept of Jewish nationalism in exile". This concept, where she was born? What is a mammal? Of course, our history and more-our belief is integral and intrinsic to them. If not, tell me why you picked on? Why isn't Uganda? You came to tell me that until the beginning of Zionism was not a Jewish nation? The whole idea of a Jewish state here is an original idea of Herzl and others like it? Of course not. Our roots are thousands of years old. Our nation also created thousands of years ago [Egypt-systematic port]. And also your nationalism and sucking.

In you're right that most who did and brought to reality the same longing are secular. But again, this ideal was not born with them! Even if all with secular Israel today, it does not delete the source, which made him, and link it here.

C. about the seder. What point is also that matters to you as it is characteristic of the nation, no catches, held for centuries if you disconnect from the properties. I mean, how many generations retain seder in her secular family? The buildings also will come and build a succah?

Note that today you are created for no mention of my Bab. .. As with Israel kept religion, he didn't forget also the seder last AV in times of spiritual and physical meter.

BTW t. BABB: books on Napoleon he saw Jews cry about the destruction of the temple Beth. He said to them: "what are you crying?" he said. Napoleon said: "I remember crying about his past and what happened to it thousands of years ago, eventually will return to his country and to be built". So I heard. Don't know if source really happened. The main message.

D. course--all Israel Arabs together "he meant I force you to hear what I have to say. It would be useful. The point was just to explain why does matter how you live. Incidentally, the trial is over, each of Israel affects all people. As in the example of a person who drills a hole in the ship and says he's doing it in a private room.

.o.k 40024.9331365741
navot  
#29 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 1:40:46 AM(UTC)
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A. you entered here for debate among Herzl's political Zionism, worked to establish a Jewish State in Eretz Israel, necessarily and roizionistic of Jabotinsky Zionism, no other State investigation of the Jewish people and Israel than land for construction. I don't think it's relevant so for discussion here. With all your last ten sentences I agree.

2 you hold a claim. "Even if all with secular Israel today, it does not delete the source, which made it to the people." You said, you're right. Even if religion doesn't play a role, the sense of unity and nationalism is still strong. History, language, customs, mentality, these are all related (at least not directly or exclusively), but contribute to the characterization.

I understand your claim, but I still don't agree with it. We still retain the seder (including all of the West Bank, and all). As for the buildings, I hope they will come and build a Sukkah, and for me I try to educate my son and grandchildren so that they in turn take their sons and their grandchildren education.

Intentionally mentioned here the Tisha B'Av. I not only urge on Tisha B'Av, I also created about a lot of things lost or mtropapim, but it loosens the exclusive relationship.

Napoleon.

D-make me Where did you read that? I'm just saying I appreciate you're interested in how I live and that changes you, I understand that the intention is to have and we all better, but I'm not interested, thank you and goodbye.
Some ugly front to this topic would be a salesman coming to DirecTV subscribers anxious. Maybe he believes with all his heart that it is better for them to go, but the guys are hot and not want to move. Again, I'm sorry for the simplistic, but you understand me?

.o.k  
#30 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 1:55:03 AM(UTC)
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A. who has no interest in a really don't have a common language. And my question is: just how he wants to preserve with Israel when it is disconnected from religion and land, too.

2-3. I think we got to the root of the dispute between us.

I mean the practical meaning of the law is not that I bother you. Taking your analogy: I [of course I personally but the religion] don't get your Jackie [unless you prefer]. Abbreviation here we agree.

leibman2  
#31 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 3:03:22 AM(UTC)
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It's a pity that this debate represents religious/secular rule. Usually this kind of running arguments much less beautiful (in my experience at least)
Amtrak  
#32 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 3:15:18 AM(UTC)
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Israel

"We describe ourselves the State of Israel without reference to Saturday, with weddings and civil marriage between Gentiles and Jews [such as large-scale currently abroad], without religion, without rabbinical" dream, in my opinion. To stress-I don't have a problem with individuals that alluding to the Sun, get married the way they want, and listen to the Rabbinate and to religion. I have a problem when it comes to state laws.
For me, the ideal would be a State of Israel, of Israelis. Of all religions and all Nations, that they want to be. People don't expect to plan how I want to live my life based on definition they set about my religion. And that all citizens are equal in it.
But it's really much debate is too big for this forum.

With how the country is progressing right now, and right now I started biometrics law (law Mofaz as icing on the cake), I don't think my vision come true soon.
.o.k  
#33 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 3:29:47 AM(UTC)
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[Where entered Israel "in your dream? Israel's second name is Jacob, one of three Israeli nation absorbed [Judith] at least the name CRA.]

I think it's sad and delusional that dream. We have sometimes shortest ת'זיכרון. If you think you can get out of this story, you're delusional.

For example, look how you do as shbshlton of this country are people of Jewish identity change. ... It doesn't interest you try to deny your identity. When Lambert.

Navot, Liebman etc I'm really curious to know your opinion why Amtrak wrote

.o.k  
#34 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 3:32:41 AM(UTC)
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Amtrak in a previous post: "first of all, I object to this lofty approach, because of the remoteness and ignorance of my religion, I get confused and think thoughts you alludes as shmlanhot"

Amtrak, proving beyond any doubt what I say.

.o.k 40025.0257986111
leibman2  
#35 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 3:41:31 AM(UTC)
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I have to agree with Amtrak dream indeed doubt will happen. And ainiinn always laugh biometrics on bidioni science enthusiasts (myself included ) about the future of paranoid and grim but somehow we always oriented to: \ A deal with what Philip k. Dick would say about this law if he was still alive.
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#36 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 3:51:21 AM(UTC)
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As one of his titles is Chief Rabbi of the secular, not sure why it is not possible to make a detour of several hundred meters around the cliff. Just about closing the beach for a short period, which rarely go on the trail. So why not compromise?

And following a heated debate I suggested administrative/management of the Forum regarding the opening of a forum for theology of the trails. Be it turbulent and interesting discussions. Here, perhaps, will discussions about walking on Israel.

P.s.

Important note, in my opinion. If you're going to get into a theological debate has been a misunderstanding and confusion between the concepts of the State of Israel and the so-called "land of Israel". These are two different things.

"Land of Israel" is Palestine or Palestine. The State of Israel is completely different.
.o.k  
#37 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 4:08:48 AM(UTC)
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Also your comment we can argue, but I'm still in shock from Amtrak's dreams and Leibman [naive me].

However, I also think imbalance [but it's okay to exceed once.] This forum should be a quiet corner of wichoachi politics, religion and State, and for this the way heavy topics.

Amtrak  
#38 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 3:08:48 PM(UTC)
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A shbshlton of this country are normal people don't look at religion as a component of citizenship, I'll be satisfied.
Of course, if there is any religious coercion to Greece, of course I'm not satisfied. Just like now.
.o.k  
#39 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 4:34:51 PM(UTC)
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I wasn't talking about religious coercion. Talked about it even though you try to forget about you, and if you try to create a State religion and nationality don't play her role, never [not you personally, all the concept]. Then, your cost to power shmdina from Jesus, not like at all so bad.

In short, if anything the Nazi troops never accounted who assimilate or considered himself German for anything or is it just a grandmother from his father who was Jewish--they killed everyone who had anything to do with the Judaism.

If we forget who we are, the world reminds us.

So it's sad that you want to erase the Jewish State

.o.k 40025.5895138889
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#40 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2009 8:01:42 PM(UTC)
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According to the text amount spilled on the subject irrelevant, I wish you would have spend on energy-related topics really unblock.

Already wrote it really has nothing to do with religion. It's just a lack of consideration of, and it should come out. Write all-a freedom of religion and worship and the other named "love thy neighbour as thyself" and prevent religious hatred to non-City considers opening hatch for pedestrian and nature classes meet on the free way available.

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