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leibman2  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:40:58 PM(UTC)
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Check it out.
Http://www.rei.com/product/829873/rei-sub-20-kilo-bag-sleeping-special buy

Significantly cheaper and maybe.
I bought it for PCT know soon how he
arthur  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, April 10, 2012 11:38:50 PM(UTC)
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Thank you very much. It's also an option list.

I'm starting to charge options.
Let's just get the thoughts. Let me know if you agree/disagree with one of the sections. Your feedback is very important to me.

1. not less than 750 Fill power.

2. better a very European standard because he is the only one we can count on you card. Without it, every company measures its bags in otherwise impossible to figure out exactly how rank them.

3. average weight of quality down sleeping bag to a range of minus 7 about 800 grams.

4. a mummy to save weight and space and more heat because there is less air inside to warm

5. it is important to be plastic rifstop layer to prevent the spread of the rifts.

What they say
afix  
#23 Posted : Wednesday, April 11, 2012 12:17:56 AM(UTC)
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[QUOTE = arthur] what are you saying that if a sleeping bag a sample X the standard EN dorgem so the loft and backwards are not relevant?

BTW I think afix created the confusion here Fill power is a measure of how much the incoming quality bag feather rather than quantity.
Link


Reverse rlovenitic amount even if European upgrade that have different dimensions bag in terms of the length of the circumference.

Didn't mean to FILL POWER but the weight of the total. Sometimes that's great about DOWN FILL WEIGHT or simply DOWN FILL
afix  
#24 Posted : Wednesday, April 11, 2012 12:34:00 AM(UTC)
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1.
If you weight and your money is better to go for an upgrade in 850 (USA). Hawks (say 900 upgrade) is not recommended.
Also note that enable European quality rating differs from the U.S. (I think that USA 850 750 European)

2.
If the bag upside down I think we can get a pretty good picture of its upgrade according to the quality, quantity and LOFT then reverse no problem to buy pounds not rated standard if it is in good company, and you know what to look for.

3. it's not 800 average is pretty easy. If you see something that weighs less and has the same temperature rating, try to understand why that is the likely suspect and less warming.

4. weigh less and be more quilt flexible temperature range.

5. with regard to the resistance to tearing, is one consideration. As I mentioned there is another such example is resistant to wind and dampness, and how he breathes. I say leave it for now, if you buy a good company must receive something. Afix 41009.9094675926
afix  
#25 Posted : Wednesday, April 11, 2012 12:46:17 AM(UTC)
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[QUOTE = ninelives99] about zpacks, I too wonder ... If anyone here knows a little more it would be interesting to hear.


What I'm seeing:
They have no HOOD
The inner nylon exterior easy and also quite easy. Obviously there is a price for this, but I can't tell if it's durability. The Imperial baffle (i.e. the separating lines) is a cuban (this nylon is very easy)
Enable rating 900 sounding but has some differences is indeed improving insulation in laboratory conditions they don't
The bag is probably quite small in size (memory read in forums)
Eventually it won't upgrade by standard so I was comparing the amount to a sack since and read some people say anaesthetic
Afix 41009.9119097222
MikeC  
#26 Posted : Wednesday, April 11, 2012 2:52:50 AM(UTC)
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Arthur (ET AL)
Let's try to make some order:
Upside down:
1-FILL POWER is) FP quality index. The number (700 etc) is the volume in cubic inches that you rise 1 OZ of specific make (these conditions and others etc etc) there are indeed some American standard and European and they (stricter European)
2) LOFT-it's thickness (in inches) of insulation layer. Like I said you must note whether quoted a single thickness (like above you or below you) or double thickness (like above + below)
3)% sometimes feathers look like number 93/7, or 90/10 this percentage of feathers compared to the plume. The plume is what isolates. That is a higher percentage cotton make more qualitative means
4) FILL WEIGHT-weight (OZ fill Ann g

AND NOW THE TRICKY PART
There are of course some correlation between these numbers. But is unclear and half concealed. You are only given as FP between Cork and FILL WEIGHT you know what seemingly inverse volume if you space known as the LOFT
In addition, the LOFT is in ideal conditions (i.e., inverted shatepstot hardly limited by external weight) for most manufacturers make so-called reverse OVERFILL — more per unit volume than needed to LOFT in particular (you see inside the LOFT shcsh is limited by the shell)

Reverse isolation due not thermal insulation material itself rather than hplomot after they spread MICRO CAVITIES produced inside them imprisoned. Non-moving air is an excellent insulator and make a lot of air inflated and such.
Traditional thinking was that the LOFT is an integrative index sets since it weights in a way the quality and pour it! (and for example make 500 quality 100 c allegedly produced the same isolating volume 50 c 1000 quality)
In addition to important spill was "partially crushed" loses its insulation effectiveness very quickly.
However lately there is evidence (not just link but say believe me) reverse too swell only 250% less (!!!) the ideal volume still hardly hurt his effectiveness.

Thus!! BE the COMMON today is isolation of shcsh depends on good linear approximation of quality (PQ) in weight and in the face of the shcsh (i.e. what area spread backwards.

Now you will need to do homework if you really want to measure something (e.g. I have worked on some sea EXEL three months before ordering new CUSTOM shcsh

Note about PQ-problems with those numbers and not just two different devices. There is an argument that I would estimate is correct to a certain extent that the two different types of reverse got the same effect as the actual experiment can receive PQ because real conditions (measuring steam nshtp enable and then completely dry measure. Which of course doesn't happen in life) also lay claims "arise" (perhaps over 900 or 850) more sensitive to humidity because there aren't enough feathers to preserve the structure and fecal matter if getting wet. Before the evidence presented to it and in any case have been a way of reverse hydrophobic market should be handled in some nano coating to improve the performance in humidity.

My understanding in the real world (i.e. not continuous days scores of travelers in the pouring rain and terrible humidity without reaching civilization and drying) is irrelevant41010.0425231481 MikeC
MikeC  
#27 Posted : Wednesday, April 11, 2012 2:57:18 AM(UTC)
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And now to EN 13537
As I wrote in another post

The UPPER border (not sweating to shcsh close to man.
The COMFORT is just for women.
The LOWER is what interests you-Kerry soundly temperature of an average man
This EXTREME toughness (not interesting)

Note that many who don't use this device so the COMFORT comfort (!!!) and sometimes called the EXTREME LOWER so be careful.

It also gets the device is primarily a means of comparison between different keys and less foreseen everything. In addition to breaking device known as a "very low temperature because it contains a certain mattress not really suitable below-5 or 10 or something but the low temperature rating more problematic (although there are already suggestions)
In addition to QUILT is not aplikbili for similar reasons41010.0031365741 MikeC
MikeC  
#28 Posted : Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:14:23 AM(UTC)
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About friendship and weights etc
I wrote a post here that contains the imtgratia of what I know.
If you want to rock a little can go either on CUSTOM and I consider the work of TOM from NUNATAKUSA and JOE from ZPACKS

Worth adding if you into another QUILT so have world CUSTOM that contains besides those up too GOOSEFEETGEAR and BEN from TIM than AS ENLIGHTENED and I spoke with JOSH from RUTA few LOCURA

As already explained and warned-it is very difficult to compare QUILT and press

The QUILT history were always CUSTOM and so bgdera with smaller confidence limits (in terms of temperature and strength) and aksoteim materials, then they were much easier.
Today three things happened: the first is that there is also a regular CUSTOM keyboard and other major manufacturers all went to some amazing ULTRALIGHT hard from well-known companies and tashshit the third COTTAGE and little bit of growing up they begin to handle PR and bad customers who don't understand what they bought and they take a little longer spierim.

Therefore the real difference (after weighting warm hat like the HOOD of your shcsh and neutralization DRAFTS such as NECK COLLAR ') no longer enjoying big weights
MikeC  
#29 Posted : Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:53:24 AM(UTC)
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About ZPACKS:
I almost bought from JOE shcsh and talking with long (say, hatchtvati with some of the CUSTOM shkshim tashshit too much:)
Who wants to buy CUSTOM really extraordinarily short and hoop-think I can save weeks and hours on the phone.

In brief:
Shcsh consists of:
1) backwards.
2) cover (OUTER SHELL) outside
3) inner cover (INNER SHELL)
4) walls miizbut the upside-down in the shcsh (the name of the BAFFLES and here a brief explanation)
5) buildings made of stuffed upside down to prevent heat loss or cold air through rizertz or a hole in the head (hereinafter DRAFT TUBE and/or NECK COLLAR '
6)-snap closure at HARDWARE, zippered cases, סקוצ'ים, bondage rings etc

Each of these factors affects the weight:
1) less obviously so make quality saves more weight. JOE uses very high quality inverted (but is hardly the only one) is certainly less inverse name than is common in the industry for these tpmartorot (a conversation with him and anything that moves and excels management talks with additional experts)
2) INNER-JOE uses Eight-D that he buys from TITANIUM GOAT he just reverse proof material (i.e. last treatment fabric on one side that prevents bnozzot stab him and escape) the two easiest in the market after SEVEN D-place (or at least as easy as the QUANTUM ENDURANCE GL) and the only one available who is a manufacturer or manufacture. Be cool if he weighs 22 grams per square metre after (!!!) EXTENSION .DWR treatment that almost 30% less than two years fabrics were on top.
3) OUTER cloth is used quite easy. But like everyone
4) instead of the typical network interior walls he uses CUBEN FIBER weighs about 11גרם ml. in addition, the structure of its internal hazizzot very simple and therefore contains some fabric anyway (he estimates that less than 10% of the total fabric without)
5) because it is built to sleep with the zipper has no DRAFT TUBE below the zipper. In addition he has something close around the neck (NECK COLLAR ') such that all the missing around 20גרם less
6) has a relatively short length zipper and if recall 2.5 or 3 relatively small it YKK (and a little gentle)


You can do easier with SEVEN D inside and outside will probably drop a few dozen grams.

To sum up – because lightweight materials easy but because it has less upside down relative to the temperature rating (compared to most of the industry) and of course has no HOOD. In addition he has no NECK COLLAR ' a bit detrimental to seal and if you are going to sleep with half zipper open mode so no QUILT strips stapled-to ask him to add more weight, but it. ..

Another note to him:
1) is SHAPED the FOOTBOX NON IE just sewing flat compared to all commercial or even NUNATAK shkshim looks so KATABATIC and others doing or POINTED TOE that is appropriate for how the leg will stand when at rest. It probably won't stop you from sleeping, but not very elegant.
2) reading quite a few standard width is very narrow compared to his (and it also works out with dimensions I know.

Mickey
arthur  
#30 Posted : Wednesday, April 11, 2012 11:10:15 AM(UTC)
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[QUOTE = MikeC] Arthur (ET AL)
Let's try to make some order:
Upside down:
1-FILL POWER is) FP quality index. The number (700 etc) is the volume in cubic inches that you rise 1 OZ of specific make (these conditions and others etc etc) there are indeed some American standard and European and they (stricter European)
2) LOFT-it's thickness (in inches) of insulation layer. Like I said you must note whether quoted a single thickness (like above you or below you) or double thickness (like above + below)
3)% sometimes feathers look like number 93/7, or 90/10 this percentage of feathers compared to the plume. The plume is what isolates. That is a higher percentage cotton make more qualitative means
4) FILL WEIGHT-weight (OZ fill Ann g

AND NOW THE TRICKY PART
There are of course some correlation between these numbers. But is unclear and half concealed. You are only given as FP between Cork and FILL WEIGHT you know what seemingly inverse volume if you space known as the LOFT
In addition, the LOFT is in ideal conditions (i.e., inverted shatepstot hardly limited by external weight) for most manufacturers make so-called reverse OVERFILL — more per unit volume than needed to LOFT in particular (you see inside the LOFT shcsh is limited by the shell)

Reverse isolation due not thermal insulation material itself rather than hplomot after they spread MICRO CAVITIES produced inside them imprisoned. Non-moving air is an excellent insulator and make a lot of air inflated and such.
Traditional thinking was that the LOFT is an integrative index sets since it weights in a way the quality and pour it! (and for example make 500 quality 100 c allegedly produced the same isolating volume 50 c 1000 quality)
In addition to important spill was "partially crushed" loses its insulation effectiveness very quickly.
However lately there is evidence (not just link but say believe me) reverse too swell only 250% less (!!!) the ideal volume still hardly hurt his effectiveness.

Thus!! BE the COMMON today is isolation of shcsh depends on good linear approximation of quality (PQ) in weight and in the face of the shcsh (i.e. what area spread backwards.

Now you will need to do homework if you really want to measure something (e.g. I have worked on some sea EXEL three months before ordering new CUSTOM shcsh

Note about PQ-problems with those numbers and not just two different devices. There is an argument that I would estimate is correct to a certain extent that the two different types of reverse got the same effect as the actual experiment can receive PQ because real conditions (measuring steam nshtp enable and then completely dry measure. Which of course doesn't happen in life) also lay claims "arise" (perhaps over 900 or 850) more sensitive to humidity because there aren't enough feathers to preserve the structure and fecal matter if getting wet. Before the evidence presented to it and in any case have been a way of reverse hydrophobic market should be handled in some nano coating to improve the performance in humidity.

My understanding in the real world (i.e. not continuous days scores of travelers in the pouring rain and terrible humidity without reaching civilization and drying option) it isn't


I have read all your comments in the intently believe me my friend.
And thank you very much for the information that enriches. But it's very hard for me.
I still don't understand why focus so hard on weight/thickness/quality. On the one hand this care (average client) but up to a certain level. I'm interested in the end how can I sleep with tmprotora and what not.

When shizern car engine data Publisher is saying how much horsepower it has to prevent a Hooper/thick rod and some materials used to build the institutions of the crank.

If a particular manufacturer has reached-Habibi mode you can sleep with my bag-7 and weighs 800 grams, what is interesting to me how he got into this situation?

This multiplicity of data just press people. I really need to get to the point where I'm making a table in Excel to buy miles?
Come on.

Arthur 41010.345625
זמי1  
#31 Posted : Wednesday, April 11, 2012 12:51:03 PM(UTC)
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It's time for me to take this with a grain of salt remarks because I use a bag since 2004 in NORTH FACE BLUE KAZOO 7th, weighs 1350 grams, putting reverse, well built, wide enough for me and I respect a wide body, and everything is there Neck Protector, zipper, hat and even something resembling a pillow. I wouldn't trade it in another bag. I admittedly pious lightweight backpack depending on which means that is pretty hard to push this bag even shcsh collapse to a backpack which is basically the only problem.

The weight? Ultimately, the difference in weight will be 400-500 grams and Kings like us it doesn't matter. The convenience is worth it all.

Slept in the snow in the Appalachian mountains, took him and gig the Himalayas! I sleep only in the tent all whatever journey which, of course, adds a few degrees.

I wonder why deer don't participate in the discussion because it has enough experience and I think that he bought the km suits him all tetnas.

afix  
#32 Posted : Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:29:42 PM(UTC)
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Arthur, no one can say how many degrees you will sleep comfortably with some k it depends on too many factors and varies according to the situation. What to do, it's not a car.

Beyond that, it is important to understand a little ' how it works ' because there are things that get reflected in standard. Think for example about the differences between synthetic to make, like durability or damp environment behavior. And it also called for understanding basic safety issue: some things your sack touchy ...

As Mickey said the main aim of the standard or other systems like LOFT. It give you the opportunity to compare miles. Not according to k. standard ranked (for example I think golite) so we have to work harder to figure out where he stands in relation to others.

What one needs to do is get to where it meets the evaluation ל"ממוצע ratio" (i.e. in relation to any standard) in terms of its needs and habits which is mainly based on experience. By the way it also can vary with age.
Remember that someone else's experience with a particular kind of says something about the bag, it might say something about the person. So take that kind of recommendations with a grain of salt.

If you are not interested to understand the field so much if you are close to the average in terms of insulation and you don't have a large budget, not small and weight is important to you, but you're not so obsisyavi about the great WESTERN's ULTRALIGHT counts (for lists at the beginning of the thread). Although not rated according to UN standards known as ratings of WESTERN fine and pretty much the formula for standard.
There are others too, if you want to do more shopping and learn about the domain, then at least use ULTRALIGHT as something to compare it to, if you find that km weighing more or less you should try to figure out why there's no such thing as a free lunch-large and it makes no sense to carry more weight without knowing why.
Afix 41010.5866087963
afix  
#33 Posted : Wednesday, April 11, 2012 8:55:45 PM(UTC)
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Mickey looks you in details, perhaps you can help me-I'm planning to upgrade my quilt and bivi and wonder what the logical combinations of the nylons of them may and quilt bivi (inner and outer shell quilt bivy, top and bottom)
For example external breathing quilt shell as much and levy with top layer of more durable material protects from wind and moisture-it makes sense I can't really find comparative data (except weight) for various materials-prtaxim, omentm, tiibk, TG's "normal", 30D, silk etc.

If you have tips or thoughts about love to hear.
Afix 41011.8566898148
arthur  
#34 Posted : Wednesday, April 11, 2012 9:41:04 PM(UTC)
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[QUOTE = afix] Arthur, no one can say how many degrees you will sleep comfortably with some k it depends on too many factors and varies according to the situation. What to do, it's not a car.

I know that is not a car and everything is very strong and it indoidoali you have some uniform standard.
If I know that I sleep better when it's hot a lot have easier to choose a sleeping bag 0° c minimum Trek expected is 5 degrees than trying to figure out how many inches I need some quality judge.
You agree with me?



Beyond that, it is important to understand a little ' how it works ' because there are things that get reflected in standard. Think for example about the differences between synthetic to make, like durability or damp environment behavior. And it also called for understanding basic safety issue: some things your sack touchy ...

Agree with every word, I never said otherwise. Things don't get expressed in a very important standard to specify them.


As Mickey said the main aim of the standard or other systems like LOFT. It give you the opportunity to compare miles. Not according to k. standard ranked (for example I think golite) so we have to work harder to figure out where he stands in relation to others.

What one needs to do is get to where it meets the evaluation ל"ממוצע ratio" (i.e. in relation to any standard) in terms of its needs and habits which is mainly based on experience. By the way it also can vary with age.
Remember that someone else's experience with a particular kind of says something about the bag, it might say something about the person. So take that kind of recommendations with a grain of salt.

If you are not interested to understand the field so much if you are close to the average in terms of insulation and you don't have a large budget, not small and weight is important to you, but you're not so obsisyavi about the great WESTERN's ULTRALIGHT counts (for lists at the beginning of the thread). Although not rated according to UN standards known as ratings of WESTERN fine and pretty much the formula for standard.



There are others too, if you want to do more shopping and learn about the domain, then at least use ULTRALIGHT as something to compare it to, if you find that km weighing more or less you should try to figure out why there's no such thing as a free lunch-large and it makes no sense to carry more weight without knowing why.

I didn't say I didn't want to learn and understand more. I just said I'm like anyone else get confused when there are some upgrade standards in one place.



Which brings me to the next question, how American companies such as Zpacks, Feathered Friends steps up their farms-who decided that if it says 7-really? Arthur 41010.7869444444
shaharellert  
#35 Posted : Wednesday, April 11, 2012 10:59:52 PM(UTC)
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Arthur I sent you a message.
afix  
#36 Posted : Thursday, April 12, 2012 12:26:05 AM(UTC)
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I agree – this standard is useful and would rather of had more companies:)

The answer to your last question is that every company measures how she wants and problematic to refer to their numbers. That's the point — for companies according to standard stairs more reliable in most cases to use data on quantity, quality, the LOFT, the size of the bag.
arthur  
#37 Posted : Thursday, April 12, 2012 10:53:50 AM(UTC)
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Uki afix.
But if for example I really liked one of the sacks of Feathered Friends
How do I really know I have to sleep with a warm tmprotora they claim to be like her?

I don't understand how you can buy a sleeping bag you can't rely on the subject of the degrees. Is it just me?
Arthur 41011.3292476852
afix  
#38 Posted : Thursday, April 12, 2012 12:07:26 PM(UTC)
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Forget the atprtora written on the site and work by:
Hummingbird (58/51/38)
Loft: 5 "
Fill weight: 14.0 oz
Average Weight: 1 lb 11oz
850 + Fill Power Down

Now compare this to WESTERN's ULTRALIGHT data that appear on their website (and can be interesting to compare the data of the sack of REI mentioned and any bag that is rated according to the standard)

Similar data? Cool, it looks really similar isolated.
Different? Trying to figure out why-dimensions Genus? The amount? Longer fasteners in each Etc.
Afix 41011.3809259259
arthur  
#39 Posted : Thursday, April 12, 2012 12:11:04 PM(UTC)
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Hmm, I hadn't thought about it from that perspective.

I will do it. (Right after waking up from a night shift).
shaharellert  
#40 Posted : Thursday, April 12, 2012 4:10:01 PM(UTC)
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Note that phd and in some cases even feathered friends declare shcsh weight in the slightest variation (e.g. without or without a zipper draft collar ') and then compares the weight slightly less accurate.
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