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liorp  
#61 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2014 4:04:36 PM(UTC)
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Does a barometer can help to a certain extent? (If you press in order to obtain forecast)

My understanding to visitors that they have to keep going and not stop or it's dangerous, however already saying we should stop and dig a shelter:

Http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/man-vs-wild/videos/blizzard-survival.htm

And one of the hikers was the night in snow and survived, but I guess you have to be careful not much Chinese snow on the cover.

Edited by user Monday, October 20, 2014 4:48:59 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

imtl  
#62 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2014 4:35:18 PM(UTC)
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[Quote = liorp; 582157]

Does a barometer can help to a certain extent? (If you press in order to obtain forecast)

Of course. Wristwatch with pressure meter will give you a good measure on the situation.

The guy who was buried in snow and survived probably survived because of it. He was dressed relatively better than I realized and because snow was buried in relation

Protected from the conditions outside. Type of snow without comment. But it's all guesswork. There was probably just lucky.

Eyal

Edited by user Monday, October 20, 2014 8:16:55 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

liorp  
#63 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2014 5:02:53 PM(UTC)
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[Quote = imtl; 582158]

[Quote = liorp; 582157]

Does a barometer can help to a certain extent? (If you press in order to obtain forecast)

Of course. Wristwatch with pressure meter will give you a good measure on the situation.

There is also a barometer sensor part of smart phones. For example, s3/5 Galaxy-lacking communications (required to download an appropriate application) to see its data and calibrate it by entering the service menu בכניסה לטלפון וחיוג:

*#0#

And pressing the button sensor.

klum  
#64 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2014 5:11:27 PM(UTC)
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As hazock according to Eyal:
Interviewed yesterday on channel 1 which tour guide named Dan Dan something, he says with chshoachach "the traveler" (I know, are of interest), they argue, a third of young visitors, in which we discuss, don't bother even to purchase safe fitting, although trust comprehensive travel (including extraction, flying and medical) is also priced hiker broke can stand.
Okay, even if you get a nichbdim percent non-percent insured, (pretty cynical on the part of the "Traveler" to promote sales of insurance by the disaster), even if even 10 percent uninsured, it says something about ה"יהיה" concept.
Also likely that some of those who do bother to insure themselves properly, it was to please their parents as far as they're concerned, it's a waste of money (with the same amount of money, is it not possible to purchase non-vintage Charas).
Besides, it's going to be fine, no?
imtl  
#65 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2014 8:18:22 PM(UTC)
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[Quote = liorp; 582159]

[Quote = imtl; 582158]

[Quote = liorp; 582157]

Does a barometer can help to a certain extent? (If you press in order to obtain forecast)

Of course. Wristwatch with pressure meter will give you a good measure on the situation.

There is also a barometer sensor part of smart phones. For example, s3/5 Galaxy-lacking communications (required to download an appropriate application) to see its data and calibrate it by entering the service menu בכניסה לטלפון וחיוג:

*#0#

And pressing the button sensor.

I wouldn't count on cell phones or anything clever like this in any way.

About Ramblers insurance do so I have no information on the subject. So I don't want to just say things.

If that's the case then the extraction falls on the country and the rest of us.

Edited by user Monday, October 20, 2014 8:27:44 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

גלילאו  
#66 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2014 11:21:03 PM(UTC)
גלילאו

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[Quote = imtl; 582147]

[Quote = HarmonicWave; 582146]

ALE-the age of victims (23, 25, 30 and missing over thirty)-I don't think you can attribute it to excess and ego is fine in this case.

It seems, as much as possible to see the reports in the media, that it is not responsible for people looking to get into trouble and tried to help others.

In addition, the rate of fatalities from the casualties:

1. really small number to draw any statistical conclusions.

2. need to compare it to the overall travellers Trek. Here is a list with no people in the region and countries of origin. I'm not sure that the Israelis are listed, but it's the only source I could find.

For me, the point here is that the Trek is the attraction in backpacking For some it is the only serious trek will all the East.

Access, and completely different than for bikers, so as noted there is no Jubilee Threading hundreds of pages on the Trek (and there is no concatenation so large on the Hawaii-whoosh in Peru).

This approach to perform extreme (ע"ע apromak rafting), trekking, etc, as part of the backpacking experience is very typical of Israelis but don't marks us.

Agrees that the herd effect can be devastating in such situations. Need to have a strong character to decide against the majority.

Hey shine

I value your opinion very much but I have some reservations.

I have no idea if in the case of the three dead was all about ego. When I write my opinion about this shocking case and other cases I'm talking about symptoms that I saw with my own eyes Israeli backpackers. And ditching the case here.

I don't trust the Israeli media reports that tends to glorify and praise stories (that were) rather than dealing what travellers bring all made this situation. The Israeli media and embarrassing ignorance in all the articles I've seen in the last week is not something I'd trust him. And yet,

I don't see where the responsibility of the people who had died.

-Agreed they didn't want to get into trouble. Don't think anybody who came running.

I sure tried to help others. They were the salt of the Earth. Unfortunately they are no longer that experience and understand their concerns were very bad.

1. the Government and the Nepalese Army announced that efforts to locate survivors are stopped and the missing are dead. Do efforts to extract corpses. So far have not killed 83. And a few hundred travellers were rescued. It's already starting to be numbers of statistics. Unfortunately, if the body of the Israeli and the Israeli death toll rose 4.

2. the rate hike is relatively high in relation to the size of our population and the populations of other countries. We are traveling and hiking.

The Israeli backpackers earned what I encountered until now is not to investigate and plan what they are going to do. The herd phenomenon starts from Israel by buying tickets to the East and South America, and only when you get there they ask: so what are you supposed to do? What the Israelis do? And this phenomenon seen in many cases. People who don't even read Web page not to mention trips Lonely Planet style book, which is the one that matches what they do. But the main buying plane tickets.

Look at yourself on the site for various forums on world regions. More than one quarter of the posts are there. "Well, I have a ticket and flew in two days. So what is there to do in South America. " The amount of people coming in so scary easy. Don't talk about search ads. "I hardly see a search such as this partner for such planning and stuff." What I mainly see is: "looking for partners for soft-landing and obituaries." I'm looking to chat with someone in English and I have no idea what to do after the landing.

We're talking about so there's 400 post messages on Annapurna? I didn't expect to be here. But, how can you not discuss risk and minimal travel forum about what happened? How can there be a serious discussion with an attempt to draw conclusions for the company still came out in the future? There are some people who I really respect and who know Nepal. Access to forums where average represents the average Israeli. That's the problem. And you're right. There is a difference between budget and access to aiikrim. Unfortunately nature no distinction between the two. So that argument doesn't help.

And Lastly,

This approach to perform extreme (ע"ע apromak rafting), trekking, etc, as part of the backpacking experience and approach I know better than anyone else and be OK is very characteristic and Israelis from designated us.

Hope you went to the back of my mind all that.

Eyal

Eyal,
I kinda disagree about travel Forum.
Firstly, there are values to disaster in Nepal. Although it is not listed as here.
Secondly, the introduction of a few good years with Asian and functional forum-there are quite a few people with direct experience and help young friend (not just for young people), with an emphasis on safety when necessary (I intend to respond the regulars).

You might be surprised, but regular user here on the Forum published some comments missing hike responsibilities correspond exactly to what you're talking about and we all dislike him-"I know everything is fine.

imtl  
#67 Posted : Monday, October 20, 2014 11:37:57 PM(UTC)
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[Quote = Galileo; 582173]

Eyal,
I kinda disagree about travel Forum.
Firstly, there are values to disaster in Nepal. Although it is not listed as here.
Secondly, the introduction of a few good years with Asian and functional forum-there are quite a few people with direct experience and help young friend (not just for young people), with an emphasis on safety when necessary (I intend to respond the regulars).

You might be surprised, but regular user here on the Forum published some comments missing hike responsibilities correspond exactly to what you're talking about and we all dislike him-"I know everything is fine.

Hey Gili,

I searched the forum for the traveler before I wrote what I wrote. Here is the only thread I found about the case in Nepal.

-1248205/http://forum.lametayel.co.il/forum_msg/th/start-0

If it is called chaining up in Nepal so you and I simply disagree on the issue. If there's another thread that you are aware of so please give me a link to it.

Secondly, I wrote that I know and know many people who write there are very serious (and others) so I am very surprised that there was no reference to really serious (to me).

Lastly, I'm not surprised that someone on here writing stuff like this forum and others because everywhere, and some Forum site. If someone writes such things written here too bad there's sorry. Anyway that doesn't detract from sinker points here. In my opinion, of course.

I'd like to know that the company is the second Forum will contribute a company will experience in the future. That might as well be called traveller opinions and Forum here.

Anyway thanks for the reference.

Eyal

HarmonicWave  
#68 Posted : Tuesday, October 21, 2014 1:06:34 AM(UTC)
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KLUM-I think your response to it, regardless of the fact that it is based on hearsay, third degree quoted anonymous interest (as you pointed out yourself).

ALE-I agree with 95% of what you wrote, I just don't think the Israeli smugness would dries, prime factor here, but the mass character and backpacker. I have no way to test it, but I think the average Polish tourist was not with more experience than the average Israeli. Don't think the questions in the Forum equivalent of LONLEY PLANET are much more profound than those blmatiil.

About the statistics 4 fatalities it still low number to conclusions--it could easily be double or half.

But if you insist on 4 out of 80 deaths is 5% fatalities. I have a feeling that the Israelis on the Trek was higher than 5%. So the Israeli travel was less likely to die in the end?

By the way, if you're looking for the, I think the Cuzco rafting is an example represents better that last disaster-the cruise that was made at the end of the season, all 8 members of the Group were Israelis. (BTW, I also made it in time, without understanding what things, so I don't get myself an exception).

Editing:

BTW, there's also a thread and functional .

Edited by user Tuesday, October 21, 2014 1:24:04 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

imtl  
#69 Posted : Tuesday, October 21, 2014 3:54:05 AM(UTC)
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[Quote = HarmonicWave; 582176]

KLUM-I think your response to it, regardless of the fact that it is based on hearsay, third degree quoted anonymous interest (as you pointed out yourself).

ALE-I agree with 95% of what you wrote, I just don't think the Israeli smugness would dries, prime factor here, but the mass character and backpacker. I have no way to test it, but I think the average Polish tourist was not with more experience than the average Israeli. Don't think the questions in the Forum equivalent of LONLEY PLANET are much more profound than those blmatiil.

About the statistics 4 fatalities it still low number to conclusions--it could easily be double or half.

But if you insist on 4 out of 80 deaths is 5% fatalities. I have a feeling that the Israelis on the Trek was higher than 5%. So the Israeli travel was less likely to die in the end?

By the way, if you're looking for the, I think the Cuzco rafting is an example represents better that last disaster-the cruise that was made at the end of the season, all 8 members of the Group were Israelis. (BTW, I also made it in time, without understanding what things, so I don't get myself an exception).

Editing:

BTW, there's also a thread and functional .

Yair.

Finally I see with my own eyes the normal thread about what happened in the travel Forum. Hoped and waited to see. I'm happy there because people will read it. Don't know about you, but realize there are more likely. So thanks! I fix my words from earlier! (And I'm also glad the Manager there cells just fine and not injured)

About the percentage of Israelis total (it is chilling to think and write about people in terms of percentage)

So it's not 4 Israelis out of 80 dead. But from about 40. Other specific missing just 40th and anpalim estimate that dead are an overwhelming majority. If you look at the fatalities just Annapurna area so higher percentages. In addition, more than half of the fatalities (43 in all regions) were locals and tourists. Also porters and shepherds who just died from lack of equipment and lack of ability to cope on their own. Keep in mind that travelers with porters were also each with 20 kg of equipment on their backs. People with flip-flops and d but themselves after hikers and travelers to their deaths dragged. Unfortunately those in no hurry to get normally. I still think these numbers indicate anything but let's agree that maybe reader I have strict eyes on Israeli behavior is common. I already mentioned everything built my things I've seen over the years. But it also pointed out that not all opinion attempt to determine facts.

Incidentally, if you look at the list you gave the link before then there are 42 in the list of 614 registered the list includes people from other areas in Nepal and goose from hanporna per night.

The rest of the tourists killed so I accept your statement that General and flocking to Goose actually crucial Israeli here. The Israeli angle is at the root of our discussion because I think we have a little discussion beyond the current disaster. Also most of the evidence I have at least both of Israelis.

Another important thing, the fact that the percentage is due to it having a high percentage of Israelis on this route did not detract from the fact that many of you talked about access. The high percentage of Israelis on the track rather than reinforce the point.

The owner of the rafting. And I get sharp and telling myself that I did stupid things in my life. Even more people here and elsewhere. Why we do stupid things sometimes? An excellent question. I don't have an explanation. I'm in the shower I described here. The difference is that I'm somewhere else, trying and taking decisions. So I'm trying to create here can others learn from things and retarded decisions that I made and might otherwise have been.

If I didn't do that crap so I wouldn't mess with it all now.

If it seems I'm looking to deal with the Israelis ... Yes, of course I'm looking for! I first and I'm looking to help improve among the people around me.

Anyway thanks again!

Eyal

Edited by user Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:35:08 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

גלילאו  
#70 Posted : Tuesday, October 21, 2014 7:51:41 AM(UTC)
גלילאו

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It is the concatenating assignment I mean, Harmonix beat me to it.
Again, this is not an in-depth debate like the one here, but it's something.
There is also responding to Nepal to give sometimes the local angle, another little add-on.

Believe me that, if necessary, get there a link to the discussion here.

About nonsense and mistakes too small but I made some mistakes, the question is whether we learn from mistakes (well, beforehand) and if we apply to.

imtl  
#71 Posted : Tuesday, October 21, 2014 2:17:35 PM(UTC)
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HarmonicWave  
#72 Posted : Friday, October 24, 2014 11:02:14 AM(UTC)
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More chilling testimony from someone walking with the dead in Nepal.

In yet another accident in Nepal.

imtl  
#73 Posted : Friday, October 24, 2014 11:06:00 AM(UTC)
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[Quote = HarmonicWave; 582222]

More chilling testimony from someone walking with the dead in Nepal.

In yet another accident in Nepal.

That road to Doncaster.

Today at least the most "runway". Once it takes 11 hours to reach.

The route is very steep. Lucky bitch in a few months. A disaster on Mount Everest in April to it.

14 people were killed including two wounded Israeli ו52???

This bus was overloaded. There is no bus in Nepal that can hold that amount of people.

Read testimony from one of the survivors, so it is a local tourist bus bought a ticket because it's cheaper. And tour bus. (There are some differences between the two also in terms of customs and certainly in terms of travel time and vehicle quality).

In Nepal there are 1500 deaths per year from accidents.

Just see what is:

Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELKYBn0iBi8

Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmexMjqRjYo

Edited by user Friday, October 24, 2014 6:42:51 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Eli TheHiker  
#74 Posted : Monday, October 27, 2014 12:28:05 PM(UTC)
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Hello friends,

I returned yesterday from the trip in Nepal «EBC and stripes and tell a little personal perspective about what happened there. (Photo trip summary will be a separate post).

Whoever was in Nepal, should understand that this is a third world country in the Himalaya range and so it starts.

People expect to receive weather forecasts, updates or instructions from the authority or as guides in Europe and other Western countries but none really exists.

Despite substantial improvements in infrastructure, absorption and extraction in the years since 2006 and tourism blossoms still is a third world country, not really excels in safety procedures and therefore can be trusted yourself and others.

Although in the end «EBC hit much small scale (continued as a day and a half with two feet of snow), Annapurna, but the behavior people was like and what I see is a general topic: 'd endangered

1) wasn't any warning about approaching storm, authorities, local official.

2) most porters, guides leading groups in valleys and doesn't even recognize the fickle weather in the mountains because of travel agencies and hired in the field/high towns.

3) most porters, official guides don't really go through any formal training in safety and a chat with some of them, the training diploma received because they know the track and paid enough money for it.

4) people who take porters leave for themselves minimum clothing in the bag and when Porter escapes them, remain without anything.

5) most people arriving tour groups arrived in that October the weather is stable and there is no need for special equipment, any emergency.

6) most people who came in organized groups or they trust them blindly porters that think they know the terrain and weather and were climbing during passim, the first day of the storm.

* Example of several cases that I saw/heard firsthand on «EBC on the first day of the storm:

1) climbs out of London with a local guide and climbing gear in the morning practice and stuck in the deep snow and darkness came back only miracle about three hours after nightfall, exhausted and tired.

2) 2 travellers from a group of 8 (Italians in my opinion) that went with a local guide and one passim after snow started and what the six apparently remained sleeping told in that darkness came on I don't know what happened to them.

3) 1 of 2 German climbers who were supposed to climb one of the peaks on the night of the storm what BASE CAMP returned by helicopter for some reason during the storm.

On the first day of the storm was planning to make a day trip up the town (CHUKUNG (4900 (CHUKUNG RI (5500 and back and already the beginning there were few obvious signs of approaching storm:

1) 6:30 a.m. when ordinary days clean and blue sky, and clouds that had guys with that at about 7:00 they dispersed and remained overcast with gray clouds, white.

2) took little case indeed but it was winter emergency equipment and started to climb up there when till 11:00 except clouds the weather looks altogether.

3) around 11:30 the first strong wind and high clouds have begun to come down when the clouds began to move from the Valley.

4) around noon, the sky covered with clouds more serious and already it was clear that something was going to change and therefore opened the barometer and saw a fall of pressure.

5) was at the same time around 5300 meters height and saw that one of the groups decided to go back (although they returned not because of the weather but because one company didn't feel good and the Guide decided not to forward).

6) I also saw that snow was clear and easy not to move up and therefore went quickly back toward the cabin and approximately 10 minutes after the beginning of a sudden heavy snowfall compared with zero visibility.

7) was planning general cross the next morning one of the passim but no one knew how long lasting the storm and what's the status on and therefore we have decided to wait and see what happens.

8) morning snow continued to decline (although precipitation) and decided not to bar immigrants because it is impossible to know how long it lasts (wasn't able to check forecast) and the second problem is to find the track (no markup and GPS is not necessarily helpful in this case).

* Of course overall in such cases not to immigrants when fear of rain, snow, fog and bad weather conditions.

9) after a while we decided that it is impossible to know what will be the long duration storm conditions allow, we should start to come down lower towards the Valley and we did that day.

In summary, very unfortunate what happened in Annapurna, but I think the storm shouldn't surprise anyone because last year exactly the same dates would end of week (though much weaker) and folks in many places and still people didn't bother to read/find/understand the meaning before the trip and trust of others.

Edited by user Monday, October 27, 2014 12:54:26 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HarmonicWave  
#75 Posted : Monday, October 27, 2014 12:47:21 PM(UTC)
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Me-glad you're back.

Nothing like a report from your work, and you can learn a lot.

Definitely touch points that contributed to the disaster at Annapurna (relying on the porters, infrastructure and poor forecasting etc.).

Wait impatiently to long reporting trip.

io_travel  
#76 Posted : Monday, October 27, 2014 12:56:35 PM(UTC)
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To me, glad you're home safely! Thanks for the excellent information (like information from the field).

About your conclusions (General, because I wasn't in the field during a storm) concerning porters, guides and to many of the people who go with Porter and/or directory-I agree with every word! It is very accurate and very prominent in the field.

In addition it should be noted that pressure on these people (locals) exists on almost any price--that is their livelihood and they're really scared her.

Waiting to read your summary on the Trek itself.

oded  
#77 Posted : Monday, October 27, 2014 4:59:15 PM(UTC)
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To me, it is interesting what you wrote about צ'וקונג.

In March 2009 I went to chat that connects La Paz la kongama צ'וקונג atsk with combo Valley (lovoch).

This broadband 5500 meters tall and is very steep. When I finished off from snow. The trails were deleted and lungs was very low. It wasn't the storm and reached 2 feet of snow but there was enough snow to delete the path and the lungs to 100 meters. If I came up, I was pretty fucked. The point is that there were no signs of snow and today was kind of wristlet. The Himalayas is treacherous and the weather can change quickly.

In such a situation, should be an escape blanket to allow survival night if we fear getting stuck at night.

How to lovoch through the iceberg itself. Having come from the Valley towards the iceberg seen really bad lungs and a decision to return to the Valley and bypass the iceberg South (to the point where it ends). So I found the trail and around the point where the glacier ends there is a cabin that I knew existed (it was less a cabin and more Roadhouse designed for hikers and porters).

I must say that during the walk there through the snow alone, as the Sun begins to set, I had a conversation with God with the insight I don't get laverst and end. Silly thought, of course. I was in a clear shadrchim Valley with snow and up a mountain or pass in a storm.

bcarmi  
#78 Posted : Monday, October 27, 2014 9:51:18 PM(UTC)
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Hello

Son baraq (Forum member) and three members from Israel, last Friday.

In sunny weather the PAS Annapurna range (few volatile).

When they were in the shaira disaster preparations to the trailhead.

As they crossed, they established a modest monument to commemorate four slain Israelis.

Machete photobook uphill, the message given and the top of the track.

Welcome

Boaz

Edited by user Monday, October 27, 2014 9:57:18 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

zvikamr  
#79 Posted : Thursday, October 30, 2014 5:15:11 AM(UTC)
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The storm caught the southern base camp of Kanchanaburi, but luckily there was no dangerous 20 cm snow fell at night in shshino.
I've spoken to quite a few travel agent I use services in Kathmandu, is senior Nepalese travel agents) TANN (and when the end came for a few rounds of hanporna harvesting extraction he complained that authorities charge a lot of money from amterkim but not invest in increasing safety is her some simple things and cheap snow poles in small increments) said that many travelers have for the apas to moctinat (a satellite phone in the cabin that bpas And monitoring and dokadkim registration of people in the know) recounted a lot less people than those who were actually part of Nanjing to moctinat (and a few things more expensive-and "high" huts, rescue resources) said that nearly all the rescue efforts were financed by private initiative (.
Beyond that, I agree with much of what has been said here in this thread. If you add a period, I think it is very problematic to go trekking with pressure of time. When it comes to to catch much harder to make a decision to delay a day.
Some notes from my perspective to things said: I don't see the harm of exit for with Porter or guide, or in ב"הליכה. I'm sure there were a few travellers who survived thanks to instructors or other travellers. Obviously you need judgment, not to expect a Porter to guide, not to be drawn after unsafe people. But the Trek alone as probably most of us here in the forum often do more dangerous, with copious preparations, equipment and experience.
In fact, I see no reason that only "for bikers" out hiking. Nepal's popular trekking definitely fit inexperienced trekking ל"תרמילאים") than the southern part of Israel for example (of course you need to be aware of and prepare accordingly judged the risk in these kind of trekking and low in relation to other risks.
-And don't think Israeli travellers-exception may be in the number of visitors compared to the population but not bad.
Eli TheHiker  
#80 Posted : Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:29:40 AM(UTC)
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[Quote = zvikamr; 582271] the storm caught at base camp South of Kanchanaburi, but luckily there was no dangerous 20 cm snow fell at night in shshino.

Glad everything worked out for you and I wish we had a chance to explore in the area, maybe next time.

Everything you said is true, but the most important point I want to raise is that you should be aware that high mountain tour in General and Nepal in particular can be dangerous if/when there are surprises and unexpected changes and it has nothing to do with any experience. The attempt could cause hikers out problematic situations in advance or know how to find them.

Anyway, no matter what experience or not, think before traveling to these places make good preparation in advance (from know-how, equipment, etc.) and to get to the place and watch everything work itself out and be okay, at least that is my opinion.

The problem is that a lot of times people come without any preparation and everything works out for the best and then I think it should be, but it's not true that precisely such disasters see the difference what might happen and something that happens once in ...

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